@thebewilderness:

I’ve seen a few copies of the Watchtower, and had a few talks with the people handing them out at the time. “Why yes, I’d love to talk a moment, but I can’t stay long, I have to go meet my gay wiccan roommate and his satanist boyfriend.” type things.

I guess the difference is I… expect Jehova’s Witnesses to twist things slightly, and not be entirely forthcoming with information outside their religious framework, but someone who goes on about “fairness” and “justice” and “equality” and “wanting to fight against stereotypes” and then linking to stuff that disproves the quotes they’re using to talk about how oppressed they are just seems so farcical.

Jehova’s Witnesses tells you that they’d love for you to join their organization, and that they’re on a divine quest (at least, the ones I’ve talked to). MRA’s go on and on about how they’re not misogynists regressives lashing out at the world, and just want justice. At least the former is honest about their intentions.

Why bother? Why not just write: “The idea that consent can be a questionable topic with interpretations beyond a binary “yes-no” terrifies me, and I’d love to make it not be so, because then I know the moment someone says: “yes” to sleeping with me, I can stake an instant claim to their netherparts forever! Women suck!”? There’s no overarching political, religious or social framework to support with all this elaborate, futile source-turbating, they don’t actually have any goals beyond “Screw women, right lads”, but just bloody saying so is too much effort, apparently.

ARGH.

Thank you, yeah. You’re utterly right. And reminded me how to spell verisimilitude, for which I am thankful!

Now now, kittehs, be fair. They want the right to beat the shit out of women in a non-sexual way too.

IT WAS ON OPEN LIBRARY? Goddamn, I tried everything else. I have a comment in moderation over there with the actual quotes without context stripped out from the first 14 of the quotes. I had to give up on that one, because I couldn’t get access to Against Rape to check myself. Drat.

If we *are* taking potshots at the lacklustre nature of the links, I’ll link it here. Beware, your eyes’ll glaze over and your head will droop.
—

The quoted sections of text in this have some flaws. I have attempted to format and point those out. I would appreciate, and urge, any reader taking the time to actually read this article for quotes about misandry in academia to make use of the corrected, actual quotes.

“They [victims of false rape accusations] have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would necessarily have spared them. I think it ideally initiates a process of self-exploration. ‘How do I see women?’ ‘If I didn’t violate her, could I have?’ ‘Do I have the potential to do to her what they say I did?’ Those are good questions.”
- Dr. Catherine Comins, assistant dean of students at Vassar College. Source: TIME magazine.

You have stripped out the initial sentence, which reads: “”To use the word carefully would be to be careful for the sake of the violator, and the survivors don’t care a hoot about him.”, explaining that Dr. Catherine Comins position isn’t one of “Suckit, males”, but “Being careful with the word rape also means being careful with the person who did the raping”.
Her position and idea, as quoted, is still stupifiyingly odd, something that same article calls out in the very next sentence:
“Taken to extremes, there is an ugly element of vengeance at work here. Rape , is an abuse of power. But so are false accusations of rape, and to suggest that men whose reputations are destroyed might benefit because it will make them more sensitive is an attitude that is sure to backfire on women who are seeking justice for all victims. On campuses where the issue is most inflamed, male students are outraged that their names can be scrawled on a bathroom-wall list of rapists and they have no chance to tell their side of the story.”
Odd choice of quote. Why? I found these more meaningful myself:
“”It’s the man’s penis that is doing the raping, and ultimately he’s responsible for where he puts it.” ( Clinical psychologist Mary P. Koss)
Or
” You can’t solve society’s ills by making everything a crime… “That comes out of the sense of overprotection of women, and in the long run that is going to be harmful to us.””
(Albuquerque attorney Nancy Hollander)

“I’m really tired of people suggesting that you’re somehow un-American if you don’t respect the presumption of innocence, because you know what that sounds like to a victim? Presumption you’re a liar.”
- Wendy Murphy, adjunct professor of law and sex-assault victim advocate, commenting on the Duke lacrosse false rape case. Source: National Public Radio.

Yeah. And that same person has a history of making inane statements. Here’s another choice quote, from 2005: “”the criminal justice system is not the sole arbiter of truth.”
I found that at this article –http://www.newshounds.us/2005/06/14/guilty_despite_having_been_adjudged_not_guilty.php
Odd how people with a grudge will keep making the same statements about things they have a grudge against. Murphy’s beef ain’t men, Murphy has a problem with the concept of basic due process and justice.

“If a woman did falsely accuse a man of rape, she may have had reasons to. Maybe she wasn’t raped, but he clearly violated her in some way.”
- Ginny, college senior interviewed by TIME magazine (source here).

This is from the same Time article. The descriptive paragraph before the quote explains the reasoning behind the quote. Why did you strip that out? It reads:
“In her view, rape is a subjective term, one that women must use to draw attention to other, nonviolent, even nonsexual forms of oppression.”
So Ginny does not have a problem with all men everywhere, Ginny has a problem with expressing herself without using trite metaphors and odd analogues, whatever else kind of wonderful person she might be.
Why did you leave out the text bit explaining that?

“A lot of people are very upset by it, but I think if a man was secure he wasn’t a rapist, he wouldn’t be threatened by this list.”
- University of Maryland senior Erin Lane, after Feminist students were criticized for placing posters around campus that bore the title “NOTICE: THESE MEN ARE POTENTIAL RAPISTS,” and below that heading the names of hundreds of male freshmen drawn randomly from the campus registry. Source: the Baltimore Sun.

Incidentally, the article also reads: “The school administration considers the display “inappropriate” and an error in judgment, Mr. King said, but the case also raises thorny issues about free speech.”, so the misandric atmosphere you are insinuating exists at Maryland with this quote is the same terrible, anti-male place where the… administration points out what an utterly terrible idea this all was?

“There is no clear distinction between consensual sex and rape, but a continuum of pressure, threat, coercion and force. The concept of a continuum validates the sense of abuse women feel when they do not freely consent to sex.”
- Dr. Liz Kelly, The Hidden Gender of Law, p. 350.

… Yes? I’m sorry, but I fail to find why this quote was included in a compiliation of quotes on misandry in academia. It’s neither targeted specifically at men, referencing a state of affairs where men are evil, or even saying anything particularly outrageous. Rape is problematic, and completely clear lines are hard to establish.
The actual quote, from the actual book, available on Google Books, also emphasizes this fact, because it reads as follows:
“… [Interviewee:] “I remember an occasion where he wouldn’t let me get up, and he was very strong. He pulled my arms above my head, I didn’t put up much of a struggle. I mean I wouldn’t have seen that as rape because I associated rape with strangers, dark, night and struggle. I didn’t put up much of a struggle, but I didn’t want to, so in a sense that was rape, yes. …
The examples demonstrate that many women experience non-consensual sex which neither they nor the law and, even more unlikely, the man, define as rape. Women do, however, feel abused by such experiences and a number of women recalled short-term and long-term effects that were similar to those experienced by women who defined their experiences as rape at the time. There is no clear distinction, therefore, between consensual sex and rape, but a continuum of pressure, threat, coercion and force. The concept of a continuum validates the sense of abuse women feel when they do not freely consent to sex and takes account of the fact that women may not define their experience at the time or over time as rape”
QUOTE END.
The book is worth reading, and can be found here: http://books.google.dk/books?id=JzOjULuUDBYC&pg=PA327&lpg=PA327&dq=liz+kelly+Hidden+Gender+of+law&source=bl&ots=TXSPrOqpP7&sig=mHVMZHQW3I4eDUHKZ2YzOMmTyUQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0Nt2UrazOdOw4QTCpoDQAw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=liz%20kelly%20Hidden%20Gender%20of%20law&f=false

“Rape is perhaps the foremost male fantasy in our society.”
- Dr. Andra Medea and Kathleen Thompson, Against Rape, p. 14

Against Rape is a book from 1974.
No comments but that one, really. Kind of odd you didn’t include the year of publication.

“And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual male, it may be mainly a quantitative difference.”
- Dr. Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime; Ramparts Magazine, p. 30, 1971. Quoted thirty years later in Making Sense of Women’s Lives: an Introduction to Women’s Studies, published in 2000, p. 451-452, among others.

The full quote reads:
“And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual, it may be mainly a quantative difference. For the existence of rape as an index to masculinity is not entirely metaphorical. Though this measure of masculinity seems to be more publicly exhibited among “Bad boys” or aging bikers who practice sexual initiation through group rape, in fact, “good boys” engage in the same rites to prove their manhood. In Stockton…. Bachelor party last summer…. Young man about to be married… A woman was hired to dance “topless”…. The bridgegroom-to-be dragged the woman into the bedroom… As the woman described, “I tried to keep him away—told him of my Herpes Genitalis, et cetera, but he couldn’t face the guys if he didn’t screw me”. After the bridegroom had finished raping the woman and returned with her to the party, far from chastising him, his friends heckled the woman and covered her with wine….
… “The leader of the male group… apparently precipitated and maintained the activity, despite misgivings, because of a need to fulfill the role that the other two men had assigned to him”…
… Thus it becomes clear that not only does our culture teach men the rudiments of rape, but society, or more specifically other men, encourage the practice of it”.
Fucking terrible story!
Did you read your own links before quoting from them? This isn’t “All men rape”, this is, again, “Rape exists as a thing that can be difficult to describe yet practiced under many different circumstances”

“Rape is indeed an extreme form of behavior, but one that exists on a continuum with normal male behavior within the culture.”
- Dr. Mary Koss, ”Football’s Day of Dread,” Wall Street Journal, Feb. 5, 1993. Cited in Who Stole Feminism, p. 210.

See? People even say that, and write about it, and think so too, because as an actual point of fucking fact, describing rape as “A continuum of pressures” makes a lot of sense. Sorry for swearing just then, but I’m not used to people providing quotes from linked sources yet have the quotes say the opposite of what they’re claimed to say.

“Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated.”
- Dr. Catharine MacKinnon, Feminism Unmodified, p. 82.

The actual quote reads:
“Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated. You might think that’s too broad. I’m not talking about sending all you men to jail for that. I’m talking about attempting to change the nature of relations between women and men by having women ask ourselves, “Did I feel violated”? To me, part of the culture of sexual inequality that makes women not report rape is that the definition of rape is not based on our sense of our violation”.
Someone specifically says she doesn’t want to send all men to jail, and you still use it as an example of academic misandry?

“Then there are the wolf-whistles, unwanted hugs and pinches – what the authors of one book call “mini-rapes” – which continually remind women they are vulnerable, sexual victims.”
- Professors Margaret Gordon & Stephanie Reiger, The Female Fear, p. 6.
Notes to the above quote: while it is clear by reading their book that Drs. Gordon and Reiger support this view, it is also clear that they are referencing a chapter called “Little Rapes” (see here) on page 49 of Dr. Andra Medea’s book Against Rape. In addition, in an interview among Dr. Christina Hoff-Sommers, Camille Paglia, and Ben Wattenberg on the PBS show “Think Tank” (source here), Dr. Hoff-Sommers says,
“I interviewed a young women at the University of Pennsylvania who came in in a short skirt and she was in the Women’s Center, and I think she thought I was one of the sisterhood. And she said, ‘Oh, I just suffered a mini-rape.’ “And I said, ‘What happened?’ And she said, ‘A boy walked by me and said, `Nice legs’. ‘You know? And that — and this young woman considers this a form of rape!”

… Sorry, I don’t find other people’s inability to express themselves without hyperbolic exaggeration a good reason to look for misandric connotations in academic literature. Rape is not a gendered crime, so unless you are insinuating somehow that a female student wearing a short skirt thinking being given a compliment is somehow the same as falsely accusing someone of rape or raping a topless dancer (as per the actual “professional rapist” quote), then I don’t see what this quote from The Female Fear, or the story with it, is doing here.

“Sexual violence includes any physical, visual, verbal or sexual act that is experienced by the woman or girl, at the time or later, as a threat, invasion or assault that has the effect of hurting her or degrading her and/or taken away her ability to control intimate contact.’”
- Dr. Liz Kelly, Surviving Sexual Violence, p. 41.

This is that continuum thing again. What is the problem with it? Okay, wait, I think I get it – you bolded the later, so you assume that means someone can invoke a false accusation against someone else at any time later on. That’s not actually what Liz Kelly means by that, it’s that traumatic experiences in the moment can be rationalized by a host of different excuses (“This isn’t that bad”, to pick just fucking one).

“Can we not, therefore, conclude that general consent sometimes equals rape because of the harms that it brings to the consenting woman? These harms include the loss of the sense of selfhood, for by consenting to sex which is not pleasurable; the woman is using her body to further the interests of her man, thereby treating herself as a means to that men’s ends.”
- Dr. Mangena, Fort Hare Papers, vol. 16, 2010, p. 52.

The actual quote, which you host on your website, reads:
“For Pineau (1989: 217-243), a woman, particularly a young woman or teenager, may consent
to sex she does not want because of peer expectations that she be sexually active, or because
she cannot bring herself to hurt her partner’s pride … In all the above hypothetical cases,
there is no free consent. Can we not, therefore, conclude that general consent sometimes
equals rape because of the harms that it brings to the consenting woman? These harms
include the loss of the sense of selfhood, for by consenting to sex which is not pleasurable;
the woman is using her body to further the interests of her man, thereby treating herself as a
means to that men’s ends.
Consenting to sex which is not pleasurable threatens our self assertion, that is, the ‘psychic
connection ‘… between pleasure, desire and motivation is weakened (Pineau 1989). Loss of
integrity also follows when the woman succumbs to ‘hedonic lies’ by claiming to have
enjoyed the sex (Pineau 1989). Free consent means a woman is having sex for its own sake,
without any strings attached and the sex is both desirable and pleasurable. It is because of the
harms associated with general consent which disqualifies it as a good criterion for
establishing whether or not a person has been raped. Pineau probably needs to clarify the
distinctions between general consent and free consent in order to make a good argument. ”
… Did you read this? You’re hosting it. The link leads to a pdf you have uploaded to your website. But you still got the quote wrong, and use it to support rape hysteria, when what it really says is that “Free consent” is a meaningless term when that consent isn’t free because you’re pressured into consenting.

“Under conditions of male dominance, if sex is normally something men do to women, the issue is less whether there was force than whether consent is a meaningful concept.”
- Dr. Catharine MacKinnon, Toward a Feminist Theory of the State, p. 178.

The actual quote reads:
“Considering rape as violence not sex evades, at the moment it seems most to confront, the issue of who controls women’s sexuality and the dominance/ submission dynamic that has defined it. When sex is violent, women may have lost control over what is done to them, but absence of force does not ensure the presence of that control. Nor, under conditions of male dominance, does the presence of force make an interaction nonsexual. If sex is normally something men do to women, the issue is less whether there was force than whether consent is a meaningful concept”
… If someone tells you to say yes, or they will shoot you, is you saying yes still consent? Obviously not. The book itself is on Google Books, and good reading.http://books.google.dk/books?id=Shn5xHywtHIC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

“Many feminists would argue that so long as women are powerless relative to men, viewing ‘yes’ as a sign of true consent is misguided.”
- Dr. Susan Estrich, Real Rape, p. 318.

How in the name of anything holy you care to name is this rape hysteria, let alone misandric, or even unreasonable? It’s the same as the quote from Catherine Mackinnon – If I tell you to say yes, or I’ll shoot you, you saying yes is not in any way a meaningful matter of consent. Why is this here?

“Consent as ideology cannot be distinguished from habitual acquiescence, assent, silent dissent, submission, or even enforced submission. Unless refusal or consent or withdrawal of consent are real possibilities, we can no longer speak of ‘consent’ in any genuine sense.’”
- Dr. Carol Pateman, “Women and Consent,” Political Theory, vol. 8, p. 149.

… Again?
“Heads, I win, tails, you lose” is not a meaningful game nor a model for consenting to anything. This isn’t rape hysteria or mania or misandry, this is basic logic. I’m not even going to bother getting the full quotes, because what’d the point be?
… The level of half-measured quotations and outright obfuscation in this list is staggering. I was going to go through the other quotes because I assumed you were collecting all of these in good faith, and merely quoting from out of date sources, but that’s obviously a pointless exercise.
Have a great day.

@cassandra says

“There’s also the fact that a lot of the stuff written then doesn’t resonate now because those women changed the culture they were writing about, and those of us who’re younger didn’t have to grow up in quite the same the world that they described.”

As second waver who was there, thank you, and you are welcome.

There was a lot of feminist writing that bothered me at the time, even more that I am uncomfortable with now. But at the time, it was helpful to a lot of women and men both who were new to questioning the system we were raised in. We have come a long way because of (and a little inspire of) who we were then.

@ babsbeaty

I feel like there’s a tendency for a lot of younger feminists to dismiss the Second Wave as if it was nothing but the gender essentialist stuff, and didn’t accomplish anything, and it makes me sad as much as angry, because it seems like a lot of it is entangled with the general cultural tendency to dismiss older women as irrelevant and want them to be invisible, which is sexist to the core.

So, Argenti and I are about 12 years apart, and I think Quackers is around the same age as Argenti? And we all have a sense that things have changed since we were teenagers. Which makes me wonder when exactly the backsliding on gender issues started.

What’s interesting is that even though every poll shows that younger people are far more reasonable and nonchalant about gay issues I feel like the whole defensive masculinity thing has gotten worse too. Backlash explains why, but what I find hard to understand is how that can coincide with most young people having pretty reasonable ideas about gay men, far more so than my generation does on the whole, whereas I feel like my generation actually has less toxic ideas about what it means to be a man.

That could make sense. I haven’t seen any recent surveys on level of religious belief in young people, but if it’s declined then that would explain a lot, as would individual religious groups drifting away from specifically homophobic ways of interpreting their religious texts.

@ Ally

Which makes me think that my gut instinct that it’s the assumption that nobody could be gay that makes the more demonstrative behavior OK in people’s minds might be right. Are the people you’re talking about mostly Arab? I’m wondering how much of it is just cultural and how much is something else.

There was a noticeable upswing in racism after 9/11, but in terms of gender stuff, nope. I can remember noticing that there was more ambient misogyny floating around than there had been earlier by that point.

I could think of so, so many actually “misandrist” things I’ve read or heard lately… none of them from feminists.

And a disturbingly large portion would be from anti-feminists, MRAs or other not-feminists-at-all.