MGTOWer: “Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good.”
Like women, cats are sneaky creatures, up to no good.
So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy - which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love - collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
Like this:
Posted on November 28, 2012, in $MONEY$, alpha males, evil women, hypergamy, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, MGTOW paradox, misogyny, sex and tagged mgtow, misogyny. Bookmark the permalink. 64 Comments.
MGTOW is like the fad diet of the manosphere.
It doesn’t work, it’s bad for you, and it creates communities for these guys to talk about how obsessed they are with the thing they’re trying to give up.
TL;DR but loved the cats. ; )
Wait, the entire point of medicine is that it does you good (unless it’s expired or something). That is why it is medicine. If your medicine has fine print saying “THESE STATEMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN EVALUATED BY THE FDA” on it, you have no one to blame but yourself when you take it and it does nothing.
Damn, I just implied that MRAs have reading comprehension. When will I learn?
For all this talk about spitting out and never partaking in the evils of women again, these MGTOW still have yet to GO.
I take it we’re still waiting on them to go their own way and leave the poor women they’ve been obsessing about alone.
I take it we’re still waiting on them to go their own way and leave the poor women they’ve been obsessing about alone.
Sorry for the double post, I’m on my phone.
Phone? Bah, everyone knows double posts are a side effect of bitter woman pills.
You get what you give.
Oi. I just…the non-logic…oi.
I don’t suppose it ever occurred to Mr. Xtc and others to perhaps examine how “respect” and “intimacy” actually function within their definition of love.
“love, respect, and intimacy”
Joo keep joosing those words. I do not think they mean what joo believe they mean.
I remember one of the sadder things I read on the manosphere was a lament that what he wanted was not sex but the simple touch of another person. Yet the idea that women might be good for anything or even just sex is so abhorrent to the other guys on this forum that he was shouted down which I think is unfair because very few people can go a lifetime without some kind of human physical contact.
MGTOW is just really fucking sad. I’d feel sorry for them if they weren’t so hateful.
These guys… seriously, you probably could find a sex worker willing to do postcoital cuddling as an extra. Although probably not with men who start frothing with misogynistic rage whenever they get within 50m of women.
But, but… I LIKE bitter stuff. The “bitter herbs” were always my favorite part of Seder meals, and Bitter Lemon’s a great drink….
I honestly feel bad for anyone who has this type of “I must be alone” attitude.
Some of these guys have been legitimately hurt…just the same as some women have been legitimately hurt in the same way. And I’ll agree that there are many mean/shallow/uncaring people out there. But why should past hurt automatically mean that you should expect it from everybody? That’s just irrational, and it means you reject the awesome individuality of your fellow humans.
Using their logic, I should have assumed that EVERY man is a emotional/sexual abuser, since I was hurt that way. Guess what? I’ve never thought that…because I also had male friends who are the complete opposite!
Brains; they’re for using
The thing is, he’s probably right. The women he tends to attract are attracted to the type of man he is. If he finds that disgusting, that’s a first step. Women who aren’t attracted to assholes will just not date him. It’s almost a tautology.
Some of these guys seem to assume the women they date are a good sample to assess women in general.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!
CWS: Actually, there’s a club in Japan for that. They actually don’t do anything explicitly sexual-it’s just for cuddling. http://en.rocketnews24.com/2012/09/28/japans-first-cuddle-cafe-lets-you-sleep-with-a-stranger-for-80hr/ What’s more, the U.S. apparently did it first: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/17/jackie-samuel-professional-_n_1680428.html
Oh, so close. He realizes that having a girlfriend would not magically fix all his problems and give his life meaning. But instead of concluding, “There’s more to life than romantic relationships, and ultimately my life is my own to lead,” he concludes, “Women should work harder to magically fix my problems and give my life meaning! That they haven’t done this makes them evil! Also scary! But so wickedly attractive!”
That is not how you Go Your Own Way, guys.
Professional snuggling. I have found my true calling!
You could start the UK branch, CWS!
But but but… I thought cuddling and non-sexual intimacy was icky woman stuff! And no Real Man ™ likes icky women stuff!
Nice boys swallow.
Actually, it probably wouldn’t work with me. Whilst I’m ok with being touched by strangers following my permission, I would be very choosy about those strangers and I don’t know if I’d have that luxury.
Also if I’m touched wrong I start twitching and flailing. But apart from that it seems like an awesome idea. I do like cuddles. I would like to get all my friends onto one king bed and have a mass snugglepile.
you should totally throw a cuddle-puddle party and invite only people you feel cuddly enough towards! (friends of my friends throw these, and they double as good practice for politely articulating/agreeing to boundaries)
I may be able to do that this weekend. I’m having a load of friends over at my home-home and I have access to my double bed.
If these MGTOW weren’t so homophobic as well as misogynistic, they could have their own man-only snuggle parties! And if they weren’t such reeking, noxious piles of filth they wouldn’t even have to burn the bed afterwards!
@Evito-
I’m not comfortable with that dismissal. I’m highly suspicious of people I meet and wary around everyone, because I’ve had a lot of horrible experiences with people. I don’t consider that irrational, I consider it self-defense. I feel a lot safer bracing myself for the worst and being pleasantly surprised if it doesn’t happen than I do getting blindsided because I wasn’t prepared. If you personally don’t feel that way, that’s great, but please don’t dismiss everyone else who doesn’t share your POV as “irrational.”
Also, let’s not let them drag us down to their level. This is one battle that really will be won with good manners, facts and good lawyers. (I can recommend a very good English one, whom saw off a ginger menace I was sued by).
Because I know Manboobzers, I leave this for you.
Behold! A new foster kitten livestream:
http://new.livestream.com/FosterKittenCam/TheSpiceKittens
CUTENESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
1) I have to agree with other posters (and David) that oy, he gets so frustratingly close to a really good point! It is indeed a false and harmful idea to assume that “the attention of women validates you as a person”!
…except he then goes on to conclude that that’s somehow because women are eeevil and chase after assholes, rather than because you should never rely on others to validate you as a human being.
2) CWS: best of luck with the party! Snuggle parties are phenometastic! Additions that I have found extra lovely is to have a book passed around a snuggle pile member to read to the snuggle pile, or (if you have display options that would work for that) a fun but not too attention-requiring movie, or foot/shoulder rubs all around!
3) Freemage: woo, somebody else who knows Bitter Lemon! I haven’t seen the stuff anywhere since I moved to the US… though my awesome mom always makes sure to get a bottle or five when I go home to visit.
‘That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.’
Really? REALLY? Then please, I beg of this guy, alert the other MRAs, all of whom seem to be struggling with bitter, bitter blue balls and angry that women are ‘allowed’ to ‘deny’ them their vaginas. Spread the word! Sex is actually quite easy to come by! It may not be with exactly who you want (in both men and women’s cases, not that they care about women’s tastes because they don’t like sex at all or are megasluts, I forget which) and may come at a price (financially, or emotionally), but it is possible. Seven billion people can’t be wrong.
Also, and I feel like I am just going to comment this on every single thread from here to eternity– If you are a man complaining that the women you like are flawed because of their horrible taste in men, then what does that say about your own taste in women? Doctor, heal thyself.
With the cats, we have victory in our sight! I want the pointy tailed ginger one. Going to call her Tara.
The moment I started that kitten livestream is the moment they started attacking the camera. Cutely terrifying.
Of course, with half these guys, the whine seems to be because no women apparently like them at all. Which kind of implies those women have really good taste in men … it’s the old NiceGuyTM attitude that any other bloke a woman likes must automatically be a mongrel, simply because he’s not the NiceGuyTM.
KITTIEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS!!!
Have any of these guys ever experimented with homosexuality?
I mean, its two birds (or rather, zero) one stone.
One of the commenters on that forum thread posted something that made me feel bad for him:
Until he said:
These poor fellas could find true love if only us wimmenz still went to Ms. Beadle’s Finishing School, apparently? *sigh*
@drst: Being wary of others after being hurt because maybe the next person will do it too is totally understandable. What is irrational is being hurt and then deciding that half the adult population are 100% evil and only out to use you.
@Tracey - even before the finishing school bit, he’s talking nonsense, as if “finding love” is something that happens instantly, every time, or can’t happen at all. No wonder he’s on his own if he has such an unrealistic expectation.
I see what Evito said a much different way. I have had bad experiences and because of them I am cautious about new people. Unlike MRAs I not preemptively filled with rage at the prospect of people with qualities like those that have hurt me (in their case a whole sex;women/girls) existing and having freedoms.
There is a huge difference in being naturally cautious after being hurt(protecting yourself) and pre-emptively attacking. It is defense vs un-warranted offense in my opinion. Sort of like Al-Quida attacking on 9/11 then Bush declaring war against Iraq that had nothing to do with 9/11.
Oh, what Noadi said.
,blockquote> These poor fellas could find true love if only us wimmenz still went to Ms. Beadle’s Finishing School, apparently? *sigh*
Of course men don’t need to go to finishing school as they are already perfect.
My friends in high school seemed to do this. It was nice. Non-sexual cuddling is the best. For 6 years on New Years we would all go to a friends house (yes, her folks where rich and she had 2 houses) and eat and have a party. And when we got too tired we would all crawl into a queen sized bed together. It was amazing. I miss being able to that. It seems the older I get the more sexualized cuddling gets.
Oops on block quote…..
I wish my friends were into that sort of thing; I used to cuddle with my college friends but the people I hang out with now are just not cuddly like that. Last time I hugged our closest friends was when one of them got engaged and when the other one got in a motorcycle accident (he was OK but I was very worried).
@drst
Like others have pointed out, I wasn’t “dismissing” anyone. Having exaggerated self defense in order to protect one’s emotions/sanity is understandable. I am like that also…I GREATLY dislike being touched (except by the 2 people I completely trust). Hugs, cuddling, back scratching, massages, hand holding, etc all feels “bad” to me. It literally makes the hair on my neck raise, and I’ve inadvertently bared my teeth at well intentioned/overly friendly customers. I get where you’re coming from about needing to be wary.
However, there is a difference between the natural, learned wariness that people like you & I have…and the all out paranoia of certain MRAs who believe every woman they meet will be a raging beast-girl, and thus refuse the very possibility of being “pleasantly surprised”.
@noadi & @sidestinkappleye - I agree with you, but that’s not what Evito said. Blanket declarations that reacting to having been hurt in the past by feeling, you know, hurt and vulnerable is “irrational” is not “it’s okay to be wary as long as you don’t go overboard.” I see a difference and I wasn’t comfortable with the phrasing, especially since “irrational” is a really problematic word, one often used to dismiss the opinions of women by default, and it also implies that rationality (as defined by some other person, always) is somehow the only correct way to be human, because any time you don’t behave the way some other person thinks you should, you’re not being “rational”. It’s judgmental at best.
@Evito - here’s my issue: I know a lot of women, myself included, who get told we’re overreacting by being constantly on guard about our physical safety. I’ve been told I’m paranoid. I’ve heard a lot of women being told that they’re overdoing it and that by being defensive and/or hostile, especially when approached by strangers in public, we’re “refusing the possibility” of meeting a “nice guy.”
I disagree with the MRM demonization of women and the tendency of many of them to decide after being burned once or a few times that all women are the embodiment of evil. But I’m uncomfortable with this line of reasoning, especially using language like “irrational” and “paranoid” (hello internet diagnoses!), because I’ve seen it deployed against women as a way to derail discussions and even shame women who are trying to protect themselves. Turning that around onto men, even MRAs, isn’t productive.
I mean, how do you define “natural”? Is it based on your personal experiences? What if someone else’s experiences don’t match someone else’s, who’s right? I’m not disagreeing with your fundamental point, but your language makes me uneasy.
I’ll drop this now rather than overtake the thread.
drst: If we’re to take your last post at face value it would imply that we shouldn’t judge the MRM as being wrong or irrational because sometimes that’s used as a silencing tactic against women. Since I’ve seen you post here enough to know otherwise do you think maybe you are reading into what Evito said more than was meant? Because assuming everyone is out to get you because one person hurt you IS irrational and paranoid (not in the psychiatric disorder sense but in the “extreme and irrational fear or distrust of others” sense). It’s not “turning it around” on men, it’s being accurate. Sometimes language is used inaccurately to silence others but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be used when it is valid.
@drst
I think we’re using different language to say the same thing…I’m just being overly blunt in the way I speak.
Quite often, and especially online, I’m accused of being insensitive, angry or cold. I truly don’t mean to be, I simply have a very literal way of using vocabulary. When I use words like “paranoid” I’m not trying to dismiss anyone’s feelings or create turbulence. I’m honestly saying that being paranoid is not healthy!
However, I am going to stop this as well, since it is making a stir.
I’m personally fine with judging people for being “irrational” when they actually are. Women who have tough defenses aren’t, however, irrational in the slightest while MRAs have their picture in the dictionary next to the word.
My former housemate (Best Housemate EVAH!), throws play parties. We started to have cuddle parties at our place, a couple of weeks before the play party; so people who didn’t know each other could get more comfortable, and get the hang of negotiating permissions.
And there was nice cuddling. I like cuddling.
On the cuddling, I note that a lot of mens sports teams have a lot more cuddling during games than they used to. Also the ultimate in manliness, the All Blacks, have players posting pictures on twitter where two players sre chilling in bed together. I love it, because I cant wait for affection between men to become more acceptable. Sometimes I really kind of ache to be hugged, as I spend most of my time around masculine men.
WeeBoy: When we got back from Iraq (hrmn…. when the rest of my unit got back, I’d been in hospital for almost eight months) my closest buddy and I teased one of our other fellows by holding hands as we walked.
It sort of squicked him, which is part of why we did it; because the squick seemed silly (he didn’t have any problem with homosexuals serving, just a cultural problem with guys showing that sort of affection. Being in Iraq, where it’s common made it plain that he had that button, and we wanted to desensitize it).
It was both childish, important, and harmless; because that buddy new we weren’t doing it to be mean. Hard to explain, I suppose. There is a lot of “hard to explain” in the Army.
And a lot of hugging.
The real reason the MRAs cant’ find love is that, being an evil feminist, I kidnapped love, hog-tied love, put duct tape over love’s mouth, and buried it in a shallow grave. I shall never give out the coordinates.
The bit about “Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.” seems to better apply to MRAs. An MRA will give you affection, intimacy, or love so long as you remain attractive to them and don’t start demonstrating any feminist-type traits.
Self-awareness fail.
And hugs are good, regardless of whether they’re with manly men or not. Some manly men squeeze too damn hard, and I wonder if I’ll break a rib. Good touching = the best kind, after being face smooched by my kitteh.
Cuddling is something I don’t think I’ll ever be used to. Not only is my family not touchy feely at all, but “cuddling” for me means “having good/safe touch that turns into bad”. I wish it didn’t…cuddling sounds fun and relaxing!
I’ve cuddled lots of dogs and cats though, animals are always “good touch” in my mind.
Oh, and I love it when people play with my hair…it’s kind of an “in between” touch of physical contact without skin on skin. For me, letting someone braid or brush my hair is cuddling.
For whoever DOES like real cuddling, I hope you get all the cuddles you want!
Evito-I hope you get all the animal cuddles at all!
And hair playing, Evito — I hope you get TONS of it. (I love it too, but I’ll share.)
Evito, if you ever come by my place, I’ll lend you my kitty. She loooooves to cuddle.
(Where by “lend,” I mean I physically can’t prevent her from cozying up to every new person who comes through our door. Also she is on my lap kneading right now.)
Maybe this is the MRA version of the “fantasy of being thin.” These guys think that women are magical pixie dreamgirls made of dewdrops and fairy kisses and when they meet actual women and find out that they’re human and therefore complicated, and don’t magically fix everything in their lives, they blame the woman instead of the fact that a relationship, sex, and “racking up points” in the sex-partners arena don’t usually make a person more happy, fulfilled, or secure.
So all they really have left is the bitter, angry, hateful ranting at one another, similar to the dieters who are hoping to reach their “target weight” (in which everything will be perfect forever, amirite, because that is how the Fantasy works) clutch their hated diet-ordered-punishment-laden celery sticks until their knuckles turn white and disparage the person walking by eating a hamburger.
You may not choose whether or not something hurts you, but you can sure as hell choose not to become a poisonous mess and pretend that you are perfect and actually the victim since all women are evil and only love jerks. *rolls eyes*
I like intimacy, but I don’t know how it will be received. For example, I really liked it when my childhood dog used to lick my legs up and down the knee, but my mom said it was gross and “sexual” and forbade me from doing it. My family never kissed more than on the cheek from time to time, and I rarely got hugs except as goodbyes or hellos due to a trip. I liked cuddling a lot with my husband, but he also had some hygiene issues when I first met him and unfortunately, I have a ridiculously strong olfactory sense (I liked his scent, but not so much the rotting bacteria scent that came up when he did not shower for a week).
My daughter is often affectionate and then stand-offish at random intervals. She’ll hug me and then push away because she wants to do something else. So I do my best to just accept and roll with how she wishes to be affectionate. My cat is also kind of like that- I’ll be petting him and he’ll be purring and then suddenly BITE OW SCRATCH. He’s still purring, but suddenly NOT OK for no reason. Then when I refuse to pet him because I don’t want to get attacked again, he starts whining and rolling on the floor and demanding pets. I got a grooming glove for him, but it takes away a lot of the tactile “this is cuddling” sensation for me, so it’s mostly something I just do for his benefit. *sigh*
It’s not so bad when it’s consistant, but the constant feeling of uncertainty- it just adds to the general feeling that I can never relax, never truly enjoy the good times, because they’ll be snatched away just as quickly.
At least my infant still enjoys unlimited cuddles…but who knows for how long…….*tear*
I suppose that when I’m all alone, at least I can hug myself!
Cuddle parties sound like an amazing idea. I’d suggest a big bed or a pile of pillows, a bunch of cuddle-minded people, some cuddly pets and/or stuffed animals, and to top it all off, a My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic marathon. Alternatively, a Katamari Damacy tournament would be appropriate.
Cuddling was never a thing in my family, to the point where now if my mum gives me a hug or something I feel quite uncomfortable, which is sad. I don’t feel the same way about getting hugs from friends, though (given all my friends live overseas, meeting up is so rare and special that hugs follow automatically!). And it goes without saying that hugs from Mr Kittehs are more than welcome. Yes, it has a very sexual component for me, just because that’s our relationship, but also we just like touching each other, and there’s the added element that I can’t always sense his presence. If I do feel something physically on this side it’s usually pressure when he’s holding my hand.
Hair brushing … yes please. I used to dream of brushing his hair in the days before our contact. Twice I’ve had mediums say (and this is people I’d never laid eyes on before) “There’s a man with long dark hair standing beside you and playing with your hair.”
Amnesia, I want to be at your place.
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