Hey, MRAs: If you don’t want people to associate you with hatred, don’t associate yourself with hate groups
MRAs: digging their own hole.
Here’s a bit of advice for Men’s Rights redditors and MRAs in general: if you don’t want people to associate the Men’s Rights movement with hatred, you should probably not associate yourselves with hate groups.
Yesterday, a fellow called heiligenschein posted a link in the Men’s Rights subreddit to a relatively new subreddit called simply SPLC, a subreddit set up by enemies of the Southern Poverty Law Center and devoted to, as heiligenschein put it, “compiling the numerous criticisms of the [SPLC].” As he explained in a comment:
That’s a somewhat odd criticism for heiligenschein, one of the moderators of the SPLC subreddit, to make. If you look at the front page of this subreddit, you’ll discover that he and his pals are already doing a fine job of associating themselves with “neo nazi nutters” all by themselves.
If you scroll through the links, you’ll notice that Heiligenschein has posted links to several different articles from VDare.com, which the SPLC describes as an “anti-immigration hate website” which “regularly publishes articles by prominent white nationalists, race scientists and anti-Semites.” Note to MRAs: if you’re disinclined to take the word of the SPLC on anything, all you need to do to get a sense of VDare’s genteel racism is to do a search on the site for, well, the word “racism,” or “immigrant.” Or you can read VDare founder Peter Brimelow’s repulsive victim-blaming post on the “root causes” of the Sikh temple murders in Wisconsin.
Heiligenschein also links to the virulently anti-immigrant American Patrol Report and a Confederacy-loving group called the Georgia Heritage Council; a quick glance at either group’s website will reveal what sort of organizations these are. He also links to a pretty hateful site called A Voice for Men, which some of you may have heard of already.
But the connection to the racist far-right goes beyond a couple of links. The five other moderators of the r/splc subreddit – mayonesa, dvance, Octuple, salsaverde, warkin – are also the moderators of reddit’s race-obsessed “new right” subreddit. Some of the submissions in that subreddit at the moment:
18% of marriages by Chinese and Japanese Americans are to Jews. Thoughts?
The poison of multiculturalism
USA Olympic athlete waves Mex flag: propaganda-bearing parasite prole being used as an infectious agent by the master parasite class?
The not-so-fab five also moderate a smaller subreddit called “alternative right,” a dog-whistle term amongst the far right for (pseudo) intellectual racism and so-called “human biological diversity.” Some of the submissions there, all of them submitted by moderator Mayonesa:
Emo neckbeards having hategasm over pro-white flyer
“I believe Europe to be the ‘white man’s country’. If they don’t want non-whites among them, I think it’s fair.”
Diversity perversity: Behind multicultural push is effort to degrade American culture
The West has been seriously damaged by Communist successes at memetic subversion.
The five run at least two more subreddits devoted to this kind of crap.
Just so you know, MRAs, these are the sort of people you end up hanging out with once you join the SPLC anti-fan club.
Naturally, the handful of comments I found in the r/mensrights discussion on the subject pointing out that the r/splc moderators were a bunch of race-obsessed far-right extremists — see here, here, and here - all got downvotes from the regulars there.
You’re digging your own hole here, MRAs.
Like this:
Posted on August 13, 2012, in a voice for men, hate, hypocrisy, irony alert, misogyny, MRA, oppressed white men, racism, reactionary bullshit, reddit, splc and tagged a voice for men, hate, hypocrisy, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, racism, reddit, southern poverty law center, splc. Bookmark the permalink. 195 Comments.
I sincerely doubt banning trolls for being boring clashes with the ideals of social justice. That said, if NWO is still around, it should be a given nobody else will be on those grounds.
i was reading plex the other way, given zir past poutrage- that somehow not banning trolls for being boring does clash with the ideals of social justice
I think, on that count, it’s more letting them run rampant and be assholes than being boring. I could be wrong. I know it’s why some places just do not let trolls live long at all, though.
This is an edited version of a previous comment that’s trapped in moderation.
Women have been called queer in the pejorative sense in the same way that trans men have been called tr*nny. I understand it’s controversial for trans men to try to reclaim tr*nny.
I guess straight people are, as jumbofish says, my people, even if I’m a little bit gay. I don’t claim to speak for the LGBT community — what community? I certainly don’t have the audacity to tell Kinsey 6 people that I lack heterosexual privilege with regard to them, and furthermore that they have monosexual privilege with regard to me! I doubt that the less gay you are, the more oppressed you are.
I am diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, but I can’t imagine telling neurotypical people to check their privilege.
I know better than to claim oppressed status.
Y’know, the sandbox nature of this place makes it very different. Trolls are given a lot of leeway-especially if there’s even the slightest hint of honest engagement.
Heh, “honest.”
And it does create a problematic atmosphere. It is not a safe space.
But it serves a purpose, right? It is an unfiltered glimpse at the MRAs, in their own words. It is the whole movement laid bare.
And it is ugly, and sometimes makes me grit my teeth. But I do think that any lurkers watching who are standing on the fence will be shown, and quite plainly, exactly what is wrong with the mindset, exactly how morally and intellectually bankrupt it is.
I’m sure that’s what plex meant, but it was exceptionally poorly worded, and what I was really making fun of what the sentiment behind it- if you don’t ban the people i don’t like, then i’m denying you my official Social Justice Seal of Approval
Speaking as someone who frequently has to use a wheelchair, I don’t want your pity and I’d very much prefer you not speak for me. Mental disabilities are very real, and there is no reason to set up some sort of inane hierarchy of disability in which only certain people’s health problems count as “real” disabilities.
(Also, seriously, why in the fuck would I want to be “in the spotlight” for being stuck in a damn chair? I’m not in the chair because I want attention or pity or for everyone to go “oh, poor you, you are THE MOST DISABLED.” I’m in the chair because one of my legs doesn’t work right, and it’s pretty fucking infuriating to be treated like I ought to be playing Poor Little Brave Disabled Person all the time instead of just being a person with a full, complex life that has very little to do with the status of my leg.)
Oh, so you know for a fact now that you were engaging in blatant lies.
It’s controversial for everyone.
Do I have to spell it out? Women are hardly ever called queer pejoratively. Trans men are hardly ever called tr*nnies.
David often tweets about hip hop. Rappers frequently use the word queer. If you pay attention, you’ll see that they’re not referring to lesbians, or transmasculine genderqueers, or panromantic demisexual women; they use the word queer to attack men.
Just because the disability is different doesn’t make it less valid, asshat. Just because it’s obvious when someone needs a locomotion aid (at the moment, anyway) and not obvious when someone can’t enter certain shops selling everyday necessities (clothes, food) due to sensory overload, it doesn’t mean that we should pay attention to the needs of the person with the locomotion aid (ramps, lifts, wide aisles and tills etc.) and not the person with the sensory overload (turning the f***ing ambient music down and getting a slightly dimmer lighting system).
Aside: The “You Tried!” Award for Wheelchair Access goes to my local cinema, who recently built an upper floor of smaller ‘studio’ theatres. At the front of the studios is a bay, three seats wide, with room for a wheelchair and a carer. However, the only (obvious) way to access the studio theatres is by a flight of stairs. There’s a small landing with seats halfway up, my friend and I theorised that this was to give the people carrying the wheelchair up the stairs a place to have a break and catch their breath.
I’m pretty sure it was an able-bodied person who made that particular architectural decision. Even if there is a lift, you’d have to hunt down staff members in order to find it.
HAHA YES HIP HOP CULTURE ATTACKS MEN SO MUCH BUT NEVER ATTACKS WOMEN.
Have you noted that while many rappers attack women just for being women, they only ever attack men for having feminine characteristics? (bitch, queer, etc.) And have you noticed how often the attacks are actually just comparing them to women? Do you see the common theme here?
Yeah, reading further, my comment was kind of a derail. My bad, everyone.
People on the autistic spectrum (IMO)deserve their own category and shouldn’t be lumped in with those who actually are mentally or physically handicapped. We have our OWN issues that differentiate us from those people and when it comes to those with intellectual rather than social disabilities, we tend to have a better understanding of our place in this world and what others think about us than say, someone w/ downs syndrome. I daresay that autism is more analogous to a mental illness than a mental disability.
A brief note on my moderation policy, for those who don’t understand it. (And obviously most of the people here DO understand it.)
This blog is not a safe space. This blog is about exposing misogynists and other assholes by quoting the hateful things they say — as someone famous once said, “fools are destroyed by their own words.” I also allow misogynists and other assholes to post comments here, and they frequently post things as hateful as the things I quote in the posts. Again, I don’t censor them for saying things that are offensive, because, again, the whole point of the blog is to expose this sort of hatred. I generally only moderate comments and people when they go after individuals in a hateful way, willfully misrepresent people, or go so far over the line that there is no point in letting them post any more. I also ban a very small number of slurs.
Just a quick followup: None of what I just wrote should be seen as a criticism of safe spaces. Many blogs do set themselves up as safe spaces and they serve a valuable function.
@Toaster: Okay. So you want separate classes for spectrum students than for other non-neurotypical students. So support more money for schools so they can arrange for spectrum classes separate from general classes and other special ed. The important thing, of course, is not to call the spectrum classes “special ed” because that would create a link between them and the r*****s.
You do realize that new classes are not going to stop the neurotypical students stigmatizing you, right? Because you’re not in the general population = you’re other = you’re stupid.
Because children are bastards.
If I may expound a bit, and tie a couple of conversations together…
Some years ago, I (bisexual woman) was talking to my father (gay man) about the various umbrella terms, and he said that he disliked the alphabet-soup approach and thought we could just use “gay,” because lesbians are gay women, bisexuals only fall under the umbrella when we’re in a same-sex relationship, and trans people have separate issues entirely. I disagreed with this very strenuously, for a number of reasons. I like “queer” because to me it focuses on the central issue: our culture has very restrictive notions of what is “normal” or “acceptable” when it comes to gender and sexuality, and all of us who fall outside that box are “queer” and should a) stand together and b) work to dismantle the box, because the box is harmful.
Similarly, our culture has harmful and warped ideas about mental and physical (dis)ability, such as the idea that it’s a binary condition. (Example: in many ways, a paralympic athlete is more “able-bodied” than I am.) I think it’s short-sighted to fight over subcategorizations as though some kinds of non-typicalities are more or less legitimate than others, or should fundamentally be handled differently. Let’s address the social constructions of disability instead.
@David Futrelle
“Again, I don’t censor them for saying things that are offensive, because, again, the whole point of the blog is to expose this sort of hatred. I generally only moderate comments and people when they go after individuals in a hateful way, willfully misrepresent people, or go so far over the line that there is no point in letting them post any more.”
Dave, this is not your policy. Every single person here has gone after me in a hateful manner. In fact that is the only manner. As far as misrepresenting goes, the book-o-larnin is standard fare and an actual post by you which is totally misrepresentative of anything I’ve said.
You promote the hatred of Chirstianity, whiteness, men, anything considered traditional European and anything considered normal. Perhaps you might post a link on what marxist critical theory is in the sidebar. This way every will know that feminism, nihilism, gayism, socialism, lesbianism, ect stem from marxist critical theory with the sole goal of destroying western culture and replacing it with state control.
Feminism is the hatred of white, European, Christian men and their traditions. This is very defintion of marxism.
Umm, Scrapemind, I’m agendered, and biologically male, and I’d be perfectly fine with someone referring to me as queer so long as the intent wasn’t malicious.
Well then, Noms, it’s a damn good thing what you think has no bearing on the autistic subculture. I am proud to consider myself a part of the disabled community and I think you’re a vile lump of shit.
Same for you, scrapemind. I’m a woman who identifies as queer, and if that chaps your ass, you can build a bridge and get over yourself.
Dude, mental illnesses are disabilities. You seem to have just decided that “disabled” means “icky and bad” rather than being a morally neutral term solely indicating that something isn’t functioning as well as it could be. People with severe depression aren’t better or worse than people with Down syndrome, who aren’t better or worse than autistic people, who aren’t better or worse than people with schizophrenia, who aren’t better or worse than people with PTSD. They’re all just dealing with different obstacles, and being a douche to people with certain kinds of disabilities in order to prove that you’re not icky and bad like “those people” is shitty and pathetic.
Not sure if I would consider autism an illness in many cases. I’m more of the opinion it’s another kind of normality, just like being left-handed is. The brain can be “wired” in many ways and for autistic people it’s wired in a way that differs from the majority enough to be noticeable. It’s a disadvantage in a society where the majority is different and the society should accommodate just like we do for left-handed people, or people in wheelchairs or with any difference that can be a disadvantage, be it an illness or not.
Different human traits get medicalised way too much. A lot of “mental disorders” could be dealt with by adjusting the living environment and attitudes instead of giving drugs and medical treatment. Only if the “disorder” cannot be accommodated and thus causes an excessively negative impact on one’s life should it be medicalised. Support and acceptance can go a long way and could save a lot of children and their families a lot of grief and pain that a seemingly incurable diagnosis can cause.
NWO, no one is forcing you to post here. If you don’t like it, leave. You’re not saying anything new lately anyway.
As it turns out, this is already being implemented. And I’m behind it 100%. For the most part, there are specialized schools for special needs children which have sections for autistic children. Perhaps its better for kids on the spectrum to be separate from neurotypical children through grade school. This will reduce the incidence of bullying and teasing they are subjected to and better prepare them for college.
MsN sure has lots of compassion for those young people who struggle with exactly what he struggled with. Anybody else, fair game to be called retards. Fucking lovely.
I’m impressed by how adeptly you removed yourself from the disabled community, so that you could stigmatize the rest of us without dealing with the splash back.
@pollliwog
Dude, mental illnesses are disabilities. You seem to have just decided that “disabled” means “icky and bad” rather than being a morally neutral term solely indicating that something isn’t functioning as well as it could be. People with severe depression aren’t better or worse than people with Down syndrome, who aren’t better or worse than autistic people, who aren’t better or worse than people with schizophrenia, who aren’t better or worse than people with PTSD. They’re all just dealing with different obstacles, and being a douche to people with certain kinds of disabilities in order to prove that you’re not icky and bad like “those people” is shitty and pathetic.
This, this, so much THIS. I was trying to figure out how to say this and couldn’t find the right words. You perfectly explained what I was feeling, much better than I could have. Thank you!
@nwo
Feminism is the hatred of white, European, Christian men and their traditions. This is very defintion of marxism.
Oooooo that’s so adorable! I just wanna coo at that comment and pinch its widdle cheeks and buy it a lolipop!
NWO: You lie about people, you say women should be slaves, you accuse those who disagree with you of being anti-christian (even when they are christians), say I’m a marxist (me… whose family owns a bookstore and sells things for profit. Me who spent a career in the Army. Me who engages in “wage slavery” because I enjoy the work. A Marxist? No. Something of a socialist, but far from a Marxist: though I wager I’ve read more Marx than you have. I’ll also wager I’ve read more of the Bible than you have, because I am well read).
You, to borrow a phrase, are reaping what you have sown. You deserve more scorn than you get.
THe Queer nation Manifesto:
Queer Theory
I am a queer woman.
For nearly thirty years, other people named/limited me through a heternormative system. I reject that, and claim my choice to name myself, to speak my truth.
Those who refuse to acknowledge my choice and my name, I name bigot.
@ polliwog
I’m in the chair because one of my legs doesn’t work right, and it’s pretty fucking infuriating to be treated like I ought to be playing Poor Little Brave Disabled Person all the time instead of just being a person with a full, complex life that has very little to do with the status of my leg
Yes, totally. I was in a wheelchair for a couple months, and I still need to use one of those scooter seats or a walker if I’m going to be walking a long distance, especially if it’s hot (or I’m having a bad day, those happen). It’s astonishing how free everyone seems to feel about boundaries with a woman on a scooter.* First I get scruitinized to see if I’m an acceptable disabled person-or am I just fat and lazy? I see them doing the little mental calculation, and sometimes it ends with people deciding it’s the latter and sneering or making a comment. (Last time I was at Costco and had to ride the scooter, I got three seperate variations on “If you walked around you would lose weight and feel so much better,” from three different people.) If they decide I’m the Poor Disabled, I get to look forward to both their condesention, their demands to know exactly what happened and how, and probably some version of, “I totally know how you feel! Once I pulled a muscle in my stomach during my pilates class!”
When did my body and medical history become subject to public scruitiny? Why do I lose my right to privacy when I sit in a scooter? And people wonder why I’ll rarely go out shopping with them anymore, even though I love it.
(* I said “woman” because I have talked to a couple of guys-one of whom is significantly larger than I am-if they ever got the same type of crap. Both were astonished. They’d had a couple kids make comments, but the parents quickly shushed them and apologized. The worst for one guy was a group of teens in the parking lot making cruel comments from far away. But women I’ve talked to in groups and forums for disabled women can all relate. Obviously this entirely anecdotal.)
I scrolled through the links. I also looked here:
http://www.reddit.com/user/heiligenschein/submitted/
I didn’t “notice” any links to vdare.com or american patrol report posted by /u/heiligenschein
maybe he deleted them
can you post a link to heiligenschein’s posting instead of saying “if you do this, you will notice”, etc.?
“This blog is not a safe space. This blog is about exposing misogynists and other assholes by quoting the hateful things they say — as someone famous once said, “fools are destroyed by their own words.” I also allow misogynists and other assholes to post comments here, and they frequently post things as hateful as the things I quote in the posts. Again, I don’t censor them for saying things that are offensive, because, again, the whole point of the blog is to expose this sort of hatred. I generally only moderate comments and people when they go after individuals in a hateful way, willfully misrepresent people, or go so far over the line that there is no point in letting them post any more. I also ban a very small number of slurs.”
That works for me Dave. That’s the whole purpose of your blog. isn’t it? If you only had a group of like minded people agreeing with each other all the time, that would make for a very dull blog.
funnyface, here are two links he posted to vdare:
http://www.reddit.com/r/SPLC/comments/wm1u0/splcs_mark_potok_inadvertently_reveals_agenda/
http://www.reddit.com/r/SPLC/comments/wm1s6/a_whistleblower_says_the_splc_began_its/
(both found on the 2nd page of the SPLC subreddit)
EEB:
I HATE THIS. I have severe headaches that are in the cluster family, and if I never hear “I had a bad headache whenever…” it will be too damn soon.
When people read or hear “mentally disabled”, they automatically assume that a person for whom this descriptor applies is mentally retarded(which means they have a comprehensive intellectual deficit). Now I am aware that there are other types of mental disabilities which do not impair the intellect, but other types of mental functioning: like social skills, empathy, or the ability to distinguish reality from fantasy. The needs of those who are mentally ill are very different than those who are mentally retarded. Plenty of high functioning autists CAN and DO hold down jobs(even though they need assistance getting them do to lack of social networking skills). So that’s why I make the distinction between “mentally ill” and “mentally disabled”. I am not mentally retarded and I do not want people to assume that I am since that would cause them to underestimate my capabilities. Most retarded people aren’t aware of how the world views them. But believe, those of us with autism(and other mental illnesses)definitely are.
Should someone with bipolar disorder be treated exactly the same way and held to the same standard as someone with Down’s syndrome? IDTS.
Is that what you tell yourself so you don’t feel bad about separating yourself from groups with those icky people?
Shut the fuck up already. I’ve spent time in special ed classes. No one once treated me the same way or held me to the same standards as my intellectually disabled classmates. Putting both autism and mental retardation under the disabled umbrella doesn’t mean they’re classed as the exact same thing.
My comment is awaiting moderation, but the gist is this: from one “autist” to another, Noms, you’re full of shit.
@MSN
What’s happening there is that people assume that because you have a mental disability you are a lesser person. That’s ableism and the problem is not that mentally disabled people are called mentally disabled. If you call yourself mentally ill instead, people will still be ableist towards you. The problem is with the people doing the assuming.
About what specifically?
And I agree with what you said about the people doing the assuming, Myoo. But how can anyone possibly change that? Most people are ignorant and not very bright, so you have to use terminology that works with their little brains.
Disabilities and special education, mostly, but really, everything I’ve ever seen you post has been bullshit.
@MSN
Yeah, it’s impossible to change people’s minds by either teaching that what they are doing is wrong or by changing societal standards so that people who treat disabled people poorly are shamed for doing so. This coming from someone who believes that we should replace all of humanity with robots.
Well Noms, a great first step would be to not perpetuate the kind of bigotry you yourself have been the victim of, but you haven’t exactly demonstrated the capacity for earnest self-reflection that would require.
So in all likelihood you’ll just continue drifting through life on the power of your own smug complacency, gleefully kicking people who are already down in blissful ignorance of the fact that you are part of the problem.
I have an uncle with down’s syndrom, and I also worked for a year as an assistant to mentally handicapped people. My uncle’s been depressed for long periods of time, despite the myth that people with down’s are always all sunshine and happiness, and is definitely aware of being “different”. Most people with down’s are. In order to be oblivious to the fact that you’re different from other people and can’t do a lot of stuff that “normal” people can, you must have a VERY low IQ. But lots and lots of “normal” people like to think of people with down’s and the like as always happy and completely not grasping that they’re different in any way, so they don’t want to hear this.
I actually do quite often, because more often than not I get neurotypical people trying to explain to me how I ought to be acting with regards to my disorder, and trying to explain it from their “enlightened” position. When someone who has no understanding of a minority that you fall into, tries to tell you how you should or shouldn’t be behaving as a member of that minority. It’s perfectly acceptable to tell them to check their privilege. I think the only case where it’s acceptable for a neurotypical person to tell me what Aspergers is like is if they’ve spent years upon years studying the disorder, so much that they’ve become an expert on it, people such as Tony Attwood and Simon Baron-Cohen are allowed to NT-splain because they have spent all of that time studying AS and talking to Aspies to try to understand what it’s like. Hell, in reality they’re not really NT-splaining at all, they’re giving a thorough definition of the disorder as they’ve come to understand it, including exceptions, anomalies, and the fact that Aspies still have free will and whatnot, and providing it in published form.
Speaking of disabilities, it’s important to remember that not all disabilities are congenital. Many can be acquired through illness or injury, including neurological disabilities that impair cognition. People with Down’s syndrome can experience the full range of human emotions and aren’t always happy. Sometimes I think that people with those sorts of disabilities such that they are aware of how others see them and bothered by it should consider living separately from normal people so they don’t always know what they’re missing. I find people to more respectful of disabled individuals who who acquired their condition whereas people are spiteful and dismissive of those who have a disability that they were born with.
ZAO: I think it depends on the disability. A nice, visible, one is more acceptable than an invisible one. I have a late manifesting/acquired disability. I have, more than I wish were the case, been called a fraud because it’s not something one can see.
You’re an idiot. MRA isn’t linked to hate groups….
Really? Prove it.
@Men: Discontinued
Well, we’ve got just, you know, links to evidence, what do you have to back up your side of the issue?
@Men
MRA isn’t just linked to hate groups, it IS a hate group. What did you think all the talk of how rape should be de facto legal, and glorification of child abusers, was all about?
I know I’m a little late for the party but I noticed something in the comments section here that I usually only notice while lurking on the MRA comment sections, so it disturbed me.
I believe Plex Flexico made references to a certain troll using the pronoun “it” I believe. Unless I misinterpreted the meaning somehow.
I don’t really think any human being should be reference in that way regardless of how asinine they happen to be acting. Even if they are a giant troll and I do believe that is what Monsieur so and so is.
Trolls get their jollies by getting people riled up. The best way to get back at them is to ignore them.
But I still take issue to it because pretty much any person who comments on “a voice for men” who identifies themselves as female will from there on out be referred to as “it” by the lovely MRAs on that site. I would hate to see this site be lowered to that level.
Long time reader, first time commenting. I know I’m a little late to the discussion, but I just loved the discussion on disability- especially EEB’s comment about the difference between disabled men and disabled women’s experience (based on anecdote; I am not trying to generalise) I am a woman with disabilities, both visible and invisible and the things I put up are linked to my gender as well, or so I always thought, so it’s nice to know it wasn’t just me.
I was having a similar conversation with a friend of mine, trying to educate him about social constructs of disability (a wide subject, and we unfortunately had very little time). He’s a very able-bodied man, and some of the things I was explaining were surprising and horrifying for him to hear. My passion/goals in life is to help educate the public about sexual abuse perpetuated against the elderly and against people with disabilities, and that’s how we got on the subject.