How to spot a feminist
Some feminists can be converted!
Over on Reddit, DoktorTeufel has a problem: he likes the ladies, but he doesn’t like the feminists. Unfortunately, some ladies are also feminists! And therein lies the danger. Naturally, he turns to the fellas in the Men’s Rights subreddit for help.
I’m just going to come out and say it: I will never knowingly enter into a romantic relationship with a feminist. I do have some female relatives and acquaintances who are feminists … and it’s not like they all wear signs that proclaim I’M A FEMINIST. (Some do.)
Aside from obvious telltales (feminist bumper stickers, etc.) or outright asking them “Are you a feminist?”, what are some discreet ways to ferret out a woman’s views on gender activism without creating an awkward situation? Feminism is a minefield topic, and I certainly wouldn’t broach the subject directly with a woman I’ve just started dating.
Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, he received much helpful advice. Celda broke it down for him:
You don’t really care whether she identifies as a feminist or not - you care what her views are.
For instance, does she feel women have the right to force men into parental obligations against their will?
Does she feel women are oppressed in Western society?
Does she think that women make less money than men for the same work?
If yes to these questions or similar, then you probably want to avoid her.
Exactly. Always avoid those with a basic grasp on reality. They’re the worst!
Naive1000 suggested looking for more subtle clues.
Ask their thoughts on “benevolent sexism” if they know what your talking about you likely have a feminist. Just to make sure go into male privilege, it’s the feminists’ most popular talking point. Let her talk about it then you can see what she’s really like. But, there are some women who call themselves feminists, but are really egalitarian: they just don’t know the term.
Memymineown also suggests a subtle approach, and holds out hope that some of the younger feminist girls can be won back to the path of righteousness:
Bring Men’s Rights issues into the conversation subtly. I was talking with my family about Justin Beiber and brought up the paternity charge and no rape charges filed against the woman.
That led into a discussion about how women aren’t punished for rape.
Just do things like that.
But you shouldn’t exclude all feminists. I would say that the vast majority are just girls(I do use that word on purpose) who have been lied to. Once you show them the real facts they will probably come around.
ThePigman, by contrast, urges DoktorTeufel to go for the jugular:
Why do you need to be discrete about it? Just ask her. If she is a member of the cult she will start screaming about the patriarchy, then her head will explode.
It’s true. Pretty much every conversation involving feminists quickly devolves into screaming about patriarchy. Heck, a feminist friend and I once screamed about patriarchy for five hours straight. We probably could have gone longer, but the manager at Applebee’s, evidently not a feminist, threw us out. Sometimes I start screaming about patriarchy when no one else is around, just to keep in practice.
Conversations with feminists pretty much all go like the conversation in the video below, only instead of a cat you need to picture a feminist, and instead of the word “no,” the word “patriarchy.” You can see how annoying that might get, and not just to Hitler.
Like this:
Posted on January 5, 2012, in antifeminism, antifeminst women, evil women, I'm totally being sarcastic, misogyny, MRA, patriarchy, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 756 Comments.
My friend in high school absolutely loved Gilmore Girls…
But, yeah, no, I don’t think there’s anything more pathetic than pretending to be a fan of something for the purpose of picking up chicks.
@Ami Angelwings on period sex… a period lasts averagely 5 days (or 3-5 according to some websites) but anywhere between 2-7 days is common I hear on an average 28 day cycle. As far as I can see refusing to have period sex is reducing your sex by some 18% averagely assuming 5 days period length and 28 day cycle. Admitedly for the PUA guys they have unlimited sexual partners so can move between them I assume? But for those of us in relationships it’d suck to have 18% less sex, I’d be bummed anyway. In my annecdotal experience women I have dated have been nervous that I’d have a problem with it, but seem to have no problem once I explain I have no issue. 18% more sex is pretty signficant in a monogamous relationship.
@bee ‘Economists also find that divorced or separated men make about 9 percent more than never-married men do’ it is interesting this marriage premium, the idea that perhaps women are more attracted to men who are likely to make more money, or more productive, is an interesting suggestion in your article.
‘the traits that make a man a high wage earner are also the traits that make him a good marriage partner’ ‘The fact that divorced men earn more on average than those who have never been married seems to discredit the idea that marriage itself causes higher wages. While it is possible that men gain marketable skills during marriage, the selection hypothesis is more reasonable’
Is an interesting idea, you seem to have bought pretty heavily into the idea of transferable skilsl and labour gained through the marriage. Ie the marriage premium rather than it being a selective issue, ie women selecting to marry the same kind of men who employers select to pay well, or ‘productive’ men.
Your second study is entirely into the marriage premium, they do not believe in the selective idea at all. However they disagree with the idea it is due to the services the mans wife provides to the man, ‘we find little evidence that the marital-wage
premium is a consequence of household specialization’. They stand fully by the marriage premium idea that skills gained throughout the marriage transfer into earning extra money in the labor market. However with a sample size of 31 and a large ratio of error along with no controls over various factors (education, hours a week worked) it’s not terribly convincing. There is of course the possibility that married men work longer hours and thus earn more?
Still an interesting phenomena and I thank you for bringing it to my attention.
@theLaplaceDemon If the reason for the wage gap is womens choices then it is not a matter of discrimination and no action to address the wage gap needs to be taken. If the reasons for the choices women make are down to societal pressure and if for some reason you consider this societal pressure a serious issue then something should be done about the pressure on women, not about the wage gap itself.
If the woman i your example who chooses not to become an engineer because of the pressure from those around her, decrying women’s maths skills, then you should deal with that pressure and attitude. You should not decry the wage gap as being sexist, discriminatory or an issue in itself.
Or as I said… ‘Scholars can debate whether it is societal pressure or innate desire that makes women elect to spend more time with their children. But so long as these decisions are a reflection of women’s expressed preferences, this isn’t a problem that needs to be solved’
I love how he kinda threw in “Santana also works,” since Santana is a totally different character with some very different traits, and is thin and conventionally beautiful. But, y’know, Hispanic.
I loved Gilmore Girls until it hit a wall! If someone wanted to talk to me about a beloved show from my childhood I’d be all over that. I would want to actually talk about it, though. I might notice if you only know the names of some characters. How much time are they planning to devote to watching TV shows those young hotties all watch?
I tend to find Glee pretty infuriating, like, half the time. Pretty much the only reasons I go back to it are 1) I was a choir and show choir girl, so the songs are hard to resist, and 2) Santana is such an interesting and sexy character. So if someone tried to hit on me by comparing me to Santana, I’d laugh at how hilariously wrong they were, but it wouldn’t have occured to me to think they were trying to neg me.
As someone for whom the show Glee is one of my “guilty” pleasures (I put “guilty” in quotes because, really, I don’t feel particularly guilty about enjoying a show which is incredibly cheesy and in many ways kind of terrible but still fun to watch, especially because Jane Lynch is made of awesome), I think what I love best about their insane Glee system is that they are helpfully applying their own stupid prejudices to the characters and therefore getting everything ass-backwards.
Rachel is talented and pretty. She’s also awkward, socially incompetent, incredibly self-obsessed, and often a total asshole. (Among other notable acts, she gave a new kid in school the address of a crackhouse and told her that’s where glee club auditions were being held, solely because the new kid had a nice voice and Rachel was worried she’d get fewer solos if another good singer joined.)
Quinn has been the “queen bee.” She’s also a big ol’ hypocrite who ran the chastity club while cheating on her boyfriend, then lied to her boyfriend and said the resulting pregnancy was his. She’s also kind of an asshole fairly frequently.
Mercedes is indeed fat and black. She’s also genuinely more likeable than either of the above two characters, and I can’t recall an episode I’ve seen in which she approaches either of the above characters’ level of asshole-ness. (I’m only halfway through season 2, though, so maybe she turns terrible later, I dunno.)
And Sue Sylvester is, by virtually everyone’s standards, the funniest, most awesome, most totally enjoyable character on the show. She’s kind of a terrible person. But she’s GREAT at it.
In other words, to my mind, the things that are supposed to be compliments are insults, and the things that are supposed to be insults are compliments, provided you see female characters as having slightly more depth than “are they hot skinny young white girls?”
Jumping in from last night…
What I love is that NWO get’s his panties in a twist about paying taxes, but is happy as a freshly milked cow when his corporate overlords take his valuable labor and pay him a pittance while keeping a majority for themselves.
No minimum pay for his labor? No problem!
Fired because management wants a greater bonus to buy another jet? No problem!
Pay taxes to build/maintain highways! Dur Teeken ur jerbs!!!
Polliwog, just wait until NWO discovers Schenkerian analysis! Now that probably *is* an evil plot of some kind, but I cannot wait to hear his complete misinterpretation of it through a misogynist lens, consider how badly he misunderstood the history of castrati.
Bee, you made me LOL. I <3 you.
cynickal, conservatives were born to be lackeys. It’s in their loyalist DNA.
Why don’t the MRAs just date women like these? They all seem to subscribe to 50s views of division of labor inside and outside the home, too. It would appear to be a natural fit.
I don’t know about other MRAs, but Meller has complained that those women are usually religious fundamentalists, and he doesn’t want to marry a religious woman. He’s holding out for an atheist whose rational pursuit of truth leads her to logically conclude that she should dress up like a Madame Alexander doll and be the obedient fluffy handmaiden to some weird old guy.
It could happen, but I have to agree with Meller that the likelihood is low.
In other words, to my mind, the things that are supposed to be compliments are insults, and the things that are supposed to be insults are compliments, provided you see female characters as having slightly more depth than “are they hot skinny young white girls?”
It makes sense, since they don’t see the women they’re talking to as having any more depth than “are they hot skinny young white girls?”
Now if a guy walked up and told me I was Doctor Venture, I’d be impressed.
I never thought there’d be a better description of DKM than “steampunk time traveller”, but I think this is it.
Sue is not the awesomest character. What about Britney? Everyone loves Britney! (Did you know dolphins are just gay sharks?)
Although you’re quite right, if someone called me Sue I’d take it as a compliment, and if someone called me Rachel I’d take it as a horrific insult.
Ullere - Seriously. You’re still mortal like the rest of us, dude.
(ps that, or Losing My Religion, or Love Will Tear Us Apart, or Paint it, Black, actually may be zhinxy’s favorite popular song, if anybody finds that relevant, perhaps for the purpose of psychological analysis)
I’m pretty sure my cat’s been reading my diary.
I always figured Meller was Christian, just not to fundamentalist levels. But maybe I’ve just made that up in my head?
Ozy: I’d put Britney in second place after Sue, but she is indeed also completely delightful.
Kristin: Schenkerian analysis is totally an evil plot, although I think the ultimate goal is less “destroy all men” and more “give music majors headaches.” (Still, some music majors are men, and some music professors are women, so we should probably beat women in the street just to be on the safe side.)
Viscaria - He’s said he admires religion greatly, but doesn’t want to be preached at, but believes in god in a way, etc etc. He’s said he’d love the submissiveness of a properly raised religious woman, but she’d probably preach at him, and he couldn’t stand that.
Britney is God.
‘
Oh, I see now. Thanks Xhinzy! Meller really would be better off with a little sexy robot, wouldn’t he? It wouldn’t have opinions or ever speak when not specifically programmed to.
I knew I should have double-checked the spelling of your name before posting -_- sorry.
@Pecuniom
De Founding Fathers ur teeken ur gunz!!!
He also has a tendency to spell god G-d, and i seem to remember him equating morality with religion, so i don’t think that assumption came from nowhere xD
Finally caught up with the thread. I can’t believe that weasel got so many people to engage with him and still managed to not answer a single damn question! Say what you will about the vile stupidity that is NWO, that man can REALLY troll. *shakes his head in befuddled admiration*. Truly the 2011 troll of the year starts the new year off in fine form
I thought the G-d was a Jewish thing (I think orthodox only but I’m really not all that familiar with Judaism)
Oh PUA’s…the whole negging thing is so funny. It hasn’t gotten any better since they were trying that shit on me and my friends 10 years ago, either.
For a start, if you’re already a shy awkward guy, approaching a group of women who’re all hanging out is a terrible idea. The average group’s response to some random guy going “you’re just like the girls from Glee!” is going to be somewhere between “huh?” and “wtf?”. Then there’s the actual negging. It only works on a. women who’re already insecure who b want your approval for some reason. Some goofy looking dude in a funny hat walks up and tries to imply that there’s something wrong with you…this is not going to go well if the woman he’s pestering is not insecure, and thinks he’s a goofy looking dude.
For all their conviction that women are evil they’re seriously underestimating just how nasty some of the responses they might get to trying that kind of shit are. Now granted that I’m an OMG ARROGANT BITCH (hi MRAL!), but the first time anyone tried negging me (when I didn’t know what it was yet) he just got sharply raised eyebrows, a long appraising look, a disdainful smirk, and “you’re kidding, right?”. And I wasn’t an 18 year old with some middle aged dude trying to babble at me about Glee.
Shadow - Yes it’s primarily a Jewish convention. Some Christians, especially in recent decades, have followed suit on it, though.”
Meller, I think has a grab-bag of beliefs, philosophies, conventions, things he pulled out of his own navel (if not his usual place), etc, which he considers incredibly moral, and rational, and humane, and “paleo-europeean”, all of which are far superior to any dogmatic religionist, or snotty atheist, is my… *ahem* best guess.
@Gainsbourg69, yeah, but why can’t they be cool lackeys, like in Girl Genius?
@zhinxy - The conclusion is that either you have goth tendencies or you have a dark sense of humor.
Funniest recent music-related experience was going to see Peter Hook and watching a bunch of people in their 30s-50s jump up and down screaming like excited teenagers during Love Will Tear Us Apart. It brought a tear to my cynical little eye.
(OK, that was mostly because I was so happy to see an actual member of Joy Division doing the song live, but still, it was touching.)
@CassandraSays
All the shit that I read from PUAs on here and other feminist sites makes me think that they have a bet with each other on who can take reasonable shit and convert into something that’ll get your ass stomped. I mean, the reasonable idea that a playful sense of humour helps when flirting becomes walk up to a stranger and open up by calling her a beautiful idiot. Now they take the reasonable idea that being abreast of current topics and what’s currently popular helps when making conversation becomes walk up to some random girl and randomly compare her to some random TV character and expect a predictable result because…. *footage not found*
@zhinxy
Cool, I remembered reading that somewhere but I wasn’t sure.
I pray, pray, PRAY that this was taken up by fundamentalist christians. I would love to season lunch with that irony!
If I didn’t know that PUAs were real because I’ve met them myself I’d assume that the whole thing was some sort of parody, honestly. Surely they don’t actually expect women to drop their panties because some random dude insults them and then stands there waiting for the women to try to earn his approval, right? And yet yes, this is exactly what they expect, and they get very upset when it’s suggested that it doesn’t always work as planned.
Meller’s worldview is an interesting grab-bag even by Internet loon standards. He’s also mentioned believing in holistic medicine, auras, and ESP (not to mention the mind-melding with animals that would’ve been invented by now if it weren’t for those darn women scientists). He’s like Soldier of Fortune crossed with Omni magazine crossed with Victorian porn.
If I was ever negged when I was younger, I probably just assumed the guy didn’t like me and stopped talking to him. I’m not a deep thinker when it comes to social interaction.
Shaenon -
If they added a touch more steampunk elements, I’ve theorized that Meller literally IS
http://www.rense.com
Incarnate, and come forth to argue with the rest of the internet.
To the point where I’ve told him that I could picture him with a banner ad that said HEIRLOOM SURVIVAL SEEDS or COLLODAL SILVER MIRACLES wrapped around his head like a sweatband.
I just noticed this upthread. How did I miss this gem on the first read-through?
“Admitedly for the PUA guys they have unlimited sexual partners so can move between them I assume?”
This may well be the funniest thing that Ullere has ever said.
re G-d. That comes of a commandment that one not destroy the written name of God. As a result (happily) there is a largish body of letters from a couple of Egytian communities which happened to have the name of God on them, and so were kept, from the middle of the Crusades.
That’s given historians some interesting insights to trade in the 12th century.
That’s given historians some interesting insights to trade in the 12th century.
…
Pecunium, historians aren’t supposed to tell people that they go back to the 12th century and trade insights, dude. You shouldn’t know this. You aren’t safe.
Seriously, though, yes that. XD
Oh, and Shadow - Yes, fundamentalists HAVE taken it up. It is cereal irony, but the whole knotty tangle of fundamentalism, Israel obsession, the Messianic movement, et al makes it… very explicable in it’s context. As far as explicable goes.
zhinxy: I’m an interrogator, I give them tips on collecting info. I also warn them about the nasty things one can catch, and recommend a healthy supply of cinchona bark.
The ones that listen, have a much better time.
But of course. I shall say no more here.
That’s probably for the best.
@Pecunium
Cheers. that’s what I’d remembered reading, but it’d been so long ago that I wasn’t sure if I was remembering right
First thing is that generally ladies are not feminists, on the other hand feminists cannot be ladies, because of they are not feminine. Feminists can be easily spotted by their behavior and the way of thinking. Some of feminists have double standards and they are cheating on real masculine men by showing a false femininity.
“Some of feminists have double standards and they are cheating on real masculine men by showing a false femininity.”
Indeed. When I want to cheat on my partner I don’t bother going out and finding someone to fuck, because feminists are lazy. Instead I put on a frilly dress and tie pink ribbons in my hair.
Explore Nature: We don’t care. At all. Some feminists are feminine, some are not. Some are men, some are women, some are gender queer. Some are straight, some are gay, some are bi, some are asexual,… Femininity is not the graal for all women.
“Feminists can be easily spotted by their behavior and the way of thinking.”
You’re a fucking genius. Feminists are defined by their way of thinking. And we’re not a secret society either.
“Some of feminists have double standards and they are cheating on real masculine men by showing a false femininity.”
So… Do you want us to try to be feminine or not?
So, no feminists are feminine, except the ones that are, but they’re faking it, for what you can only assume is some nefarious purpose. Am I reading this right?
On a related point, EN: I would love your definition of “cheating” and “double standard”. (I you need context, the context is your sentence)
Oh, good thing I never cheat on my partner. Give me ripped blue jeans or give me death, I say!
Perhaps our dear friend with the fondness for the outdoors might benefit from exploring logic instead.
One can only hope it meets with a more fruitful outcome than his examinations, and ruminations of the ordering of the natural world; esp. as he has done so with regard to the ways of the feminine mind and psyche.
Whenever some MRM douchebag comes around to say feminists are not feminine I like to point to myself and say “bellydancer”
Bellydancer
if you think bellydancers are not feminine you are truly deluded.
Jesus, it’s a brown NWO, with justa dash of DKM!! I’d tell them to band together, but Explore Nature’s non-white skin may cause NWO problems. Then again, he’s not in the States so he MIGHT not be stealing NWO’s job opportunities (of which there are plenty let me tell you)
What does EN’s skin color have to do with anything?
@Pecunium
While it does refer to EN’s skin colour, brown is actually how South Asians (and Guyanese and Trinidadians and various other people of South Asian descent) here, in Canada, tend to refer to ourselves. And even though there really isn’t any, IME us POCs tend to find it ironic when we have white counterparts. Plus, NWO’s and DKM’s words tend to make me think that they would not appreciate being compared to someone of a less than lily-white ancestry.
Sometimes I dress up all femme in part because my partner enjoys it! Littledoesheknow, the moment I put on a dress and some lip gloss I am… having sex with other people? I guess? Do I have sex with the dress itself?
Well you are INSIDE it
“Do I have sex with the dress itself?”
Now I’m imaginine someone frantically humping a pouffy, frilly Lolita dress. Thanks for that!
Now I’m imaginine someone frantically humping a pouffy, frilly Lolita dress. Thanks for that!
What’s unsettling is that it’s likely someone has done that at some point.
Possibly even someone we know … (cough!DavidKMellercough!)
Do you think Meller knows that the whole lolita movement exists? You’d think they’d be his dream girls…right up until he talked to one anyway. Rufflebutt on cranky old misogynist fight! My money is on the rufflebutt.
XDDDDDD
Fear ye not, for, like Zoe of Firefly, I prefer me a dress with some slink. I’m sure that’s a much less objectionable image.